Episode 51: Women Inspiring Inclusion

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EP 51: Women Inspiring Inclusion

[00:00:02]  Carers Qld Announcement

Choice and Control is a podcast celebrating meaningful inclusion of people with disability in our communities, brought to you by carers Queensland, your NDIS local area coordination partner in the community.

Each episode provides a conversation space for people with disability, their families and carers to share their stories, with you. We also hear from members of the wider community, local businesses and community leaders who share information, ideas and possibilities to give you more opportunity and more choice and control in your life.

[00:00:40] Tracy (voiceover)

The theme for this year’s International Women’s Day campaign is #InspireInclusion to collectively forge a more inclusive world for women. In this episode, we celebrate International Women's Day 2024 with a flashback to several of the outstanding women who have appeared in our Choice and Control Podcast. First up we hear from Lauren Killen who was a panellist at our 2023 International Day of People with Disability event.  We started by asking Lauren about her experiences in employment and inclusion.

[00:01:15] Lauren

Thanks Dean. I recently actually read a horrifying statistic at work. I can't remember the exact statistic. I did mean to check that, but in the rush to get here I forgot. But I think it was around 48% of people with disabilities actually live in poverty and I just wanted to sort of highlight that before I tell my story because I am a single mum of three teenage kids living in rural Queensland and I don't have family or support nearby. So every single day, even today, I still live in fear of losing my job because I can't afford to just live on the pension. The pension is great and I do have great support, but I would be one of those people living in poverty if I wasn't in employment.

Thinking back to my transition from education into the workforce, it kind of gave me a little bit to think about this morning. I actually graduated Year 12 in 2001 in the rural town of Goondiwindi down the border and I followed in my parents footsteps of going to that school, traveling on a school bus for 2 hours each way every single day for year eleven and twelve from Inglewood to Goondiwindi, I don't know how it happened, but my mum had this crazy idea that I should do work experience as a Jillaroo on a property.

So I started work whilst in Year 11 and 12, working on a Santa Gertrudis and Texel sheep property between Inglewood and Goondiwindi. And I do credit that experience to a lot of my work ethic. The strength to carry out the day because I learned so much from getting a tractor bogged about 10 km from anywhere without a mobile phone. All sorts of things. Chasing sheep down a riverbank and trying to drag them up, and I was about 50 kilos and I only 16 years old. So that sort of set a path of having a good work ethic for me.

I did not really have the support to go to Uni that I think a lot of people in the more metropolitan areas have, because access to getting to Uni, like, you'd have to move away from home. Things like that made it really challenging. I started completing a degree via distance education at USQ. Arts and English literature was my major, as well as public relations. I was working in local government, so I worked for the full time whilst I was trying to study, trying to support myself. And by that stage, my vision was definitely starting to deteriorate. I ended up pregnant with surprise twins about midway through my degree. So I took a lesser degree and graduated with a Diploma in Education. And then I have a Cert III in Business as well.  I'll try and keep it really short. Sorry. I do have a pretty checkered employment history. Bit like my dating history, they kind of coincide.

And I ended up taking a job at Telstra, just in a shopping centre, selling mobile phones. And it fit in well with when my kids were at school and things like that. About halfway through the term that I was there, my boss came to me one day and said “Lauren, I really think you need to go back to the optometrist. You know you’re carrying that magnifying glass around everywhere. And maybe they can get you better glasses?” I was like, oh well it's been a while since I went to the optometrist. Of course, I knew that I had the RP and you know, most of my family have it. We were conscious of my vision deteriorating my whole life. You know, being a stay at home mum. I don't think you really monitor that so much.

I was so busy worrying about everyone else didn’t really think about myself. Anyway, so I went to the optometrist and then found out that I had lost 90% of my vision. So just to give you guys an understanding, I have tunnel vision like looking through a shotgun, but what I can see is also very bad as well. So my acuity is quite bad as well.

I went to this optometrist and he said, “We can't do anything to help you. I don't think you should be driving and you need to go and see a specialist but they’re not going to be able to help you either”. So I ended up leaving my job because there was nothing I could do to make it any better. And I was unemployed for a few years and then, and my marriage fell apart and I had a nervous breakdown. But eventually I decided that I was I was struggling to get by – there were weeks where I had about $20 to try and feed the kids off. And I had to, I had to get a job. But there's no two ways about it.

So I got a job at the local supermarket at the IGA. I juggled three jobs at one stage and I was still driving and trying to just act like a normal person. So I was trying to be as high functioning as everyone else, even though I was blind and I didn’t let on to my employers that I was blind. So I was working at McDonalds as a 35 year old woman sweeping up the dining room starting at 3:00 in the morning.

And I've done all the hard yards, so I've gone from job to job to job trying to work my way back up and I guess getting a sense of confidence as well. And currently right now I work for a company called Best Employment and I work in the DES sector, so I'm helping people with disabilities find employment, which is very rewarding to me because I've been through all of those types of employment. I know what it's like to try to work without that handicap. So, but in a nutshell, that's my journey.

[00:07:15] Tracy (voiceover)

And that was Lauren Killen. Next up we go to one of our earliest episodes of Choice and Control to hear from Lisa Cox – an award-winning writer, presenter and advocate for disability representation. We started by asking Lisa about the representation of people with disability in the media and ways to create greater inclusion.

[00:07:36] Lisa

Well, there is so much that can be done. And speaking as someone who has worked in the sector, worked in advertising, worked in media, it’s not rocket science. But I also understand, from the point of view of the non-disabled content creator, which is how I spent the first 24 years of my life, there can be a bit of fear around what to do, how to do it. Do I say this and not offend et cetera, et cetera.  Some really simple examples would be, in a journalistic setting for example, using people with disability to talk about disability issues. So in the Black Lives Matter commentary recently I’ve seen a lot of complaints, which is completely justified, about four white people sitting on a panel discussing Black Lives Matter and Indigenous issues. And that’s really not on. But by the same token, it’s not uncommon to see a number of able-bodied journalists or presenters, discussing the NDIS and other disability issues.

I suppose apart from including people with disability when talking about disability issues, also looking at ways you can use people with disability to talk about non-disability issues. By that I mean, there’s far more to me than my disability and my wheelchair and my prosthetics and brain injury and things like that. So if you do have a panel about something like climate change, fashion, politics, the budget, whatever it may be, look at ways you can include people with disabilities in those sorts of conversations as well. Just to help normalise representation so it’s not such a big deal for a person with disabilities to also have an interest in things like fashion and politics and budget.

Another example in film and television would be looking at it more holistically. So by that I mean not just putting people disabilities on the screen, but also looking at using them behind the scenes, as well – as the cameraman, as the script writers, as the producers and things like that. I know there’s a company down in Sydney called Bus Stop Films who have people with disability producing the content, which is really great to see.

[00:10:16] Douglas (interviewer)

It’s really, really cool, some of the stuff they produce.

[00:10:19]  Lisa

Yeah, no, it’s fantastic. They’re the camera operators and things like that. I suppose if you do have a disabled person say, talking about climate change, just talk to them about that. There’s really no issue to bring the disability into it. The number of times I’ve been asked about maybe fashion or something like that, and suddenly it becomes a conversation about my wheelchair or my prosthetics or my brain injury and it’s really got nothing to do with it.

One good way to test is to say, if you wouldn’t ask an able-bodied person that, if I wouldn’t ask you about your two legs or your 20/20 vision or something like that, then why ask a disabled person the same sorts of question?

[00:11:13]  Douglas

So you mentioned fashion there in your last comment, and it’s obviously a massive passion for you. How has the Australian fashion industry stacking up in terms of diversity and the inclusion of people with disabilities?

[00:11:25] Lisa

That’s a good question and one that’s just embarrassing to answer, to be honest. The Australian fashion industry is kind of embarrassing. Disability has been featured on international fashion weeks, Milan, Paris, New York, places like that, for years and years. It’s not such a big deal to see a wheelchair going down New York Fashion Week, or someone with prosthetics or something like that. But Australian Fashion Week in Sydney, as diverse as we like to think we are, we have still failed to put one person with disabilities onto the catwalk. Which is really disappointing because we make up 20 per cent of the community, and as I’ve said before from a business perspective, which is my background, we are consumers. I’ve said before, I can’t walk but I can shop, I have a credit card and it really makes no sense from an ethical and moral point of view, as well as from a business perspective as well.

People with visible disabilities, because they may be invisible disabilities like anxiety or depression or something that we just don’t see, but the inclusion of visible disabilities is really important just to help normalise these differences. When we see an accessible bathroom or accessible toilet at the shopping centre, that hasn’t got fifty icons with every single imaginable disability, it’s just got the one. It’s indicative of disability and things like that, and the need for greater inclusion.

I was really proud last year to be one of the models at Mercedes Benz Fashion Festival here in Brisbane, for the designer Carol Taylor, who’s a quadriplegic designer. That was fantastic, little Brisbane – as much as we’re the younger sister to places like Sydney and Melbourne – we are really coming ahead and are leaders when it comes to inclusive fashion. Brands like Christina Stevens also coming out of here as well, it’s so exciting to see.

[00:13:54] Carers Qld Announcement

LAC Connect.  It’s a new way to stay in touch with your local area coordinator, Carers Queensland, with everything you need right here on your device. It’s a handy app to keep track of your LAC appointments, browse workshops and events, check out information and support, and get the latest news, stories and podcasts. It’s available on Android and iOS, so whatever device you have, you can stay in touch. Head to our website to sign up @carersqld.com au and look for LAC Connect.

[00:14:26] Tracy

Next up in this episode we hear from Barb Cook, author, academic and developmental educator. We started by asking Barb about their work as a developmental educator working with adults in the employment sector.

[00:14:40] Barb

I also do a lot of work in the employment area. That’s one area I’m very, very passionate about. Especially with young adults going from school, transitioning from school into the workplace. That’s where we really need to give them a lot of support in knowing what type of career do I want to do? What sort of job is going to suit my neurology? Let’s understand what about the workplace you might find challenging, that you might not realise until you get in the workplace?

And also from the perspective of working with the employer, getting them to change their perspective of about having true inclusion in the workplace. Because quite often it’s not that, quite a often it’s ‘we’ll do a little bit’, but they don’t, and they’re not actually truly listening to the person that’s working there, what might support them.

And quite often it doesn’t cost a lot of money to make these changes. It’s just a bit of thought, let’s have some communication about what’s going on. They might just need to rearrange how the office looks. It’s not hard to do, and quite often when you look at that, it’s not just for that individual, the whole workplace can benefit from having these open discussions about what works for everybody.

[00:15:45] Jodie (interviewer)

And the whole workplace can benefit from some of those accommodations. You don’t need to have a sensory processing disorder to benefit from quiet spaces or breakout spaces or understanding your sensory needs and those of other people in the workplace.

[00:15:59]  Barb

Yeah, absolutely, exactly what you say. We all have different preferences and things, you know, I know lots of typical people who really don’t like crowds or they’re introverted. Or they’re extroverted and they really do like crowds. In that sense you look at not just the office place of where you’re working, but also the environment at the type of jobs. So your neurology might be like, ‘I want something that’s different all the time’. So quite a lot of us, apart from autism we’ll have ADHD, it’s something like 70% I’m reading in the research. So some of us would like the regimented routine and that sort of stuff, but a lot of us like to mix it up too with something different all the time to stop us from being bored at work, that sort of thing.

So you’d go off and go and look at careers, it might be a firefighter or a policeman. So it’s giving you that sense of justice, because many of us are very moral-driven and justice-driven. So that’s a really good example: I want a career that’s exciting. So I’ll be a policeman. I’ve also got a sense of justice, I’ve got a regiment in what I’m doing and the standards that I have to get across, it’s a really good understanding of all the sort of things we can do.

[00:17:09]  Jodie

And understanding that people on the spectrum aren’t all going to be computer programmers, that you can have such a wide variety of talents and strengths to be anywhere really in the employment field?

[00:17:22]  Barb: Absolutely, it’s such a myth about IT, that we’re all going to be IT and geeks. No, there are a lot of different areas that we’re in. We’re in the arts, there is environment sustainability. I have met a lot of people that are in environmental science, and land care, and caring for what’s about us. I mean a good example is Greta Thunberg, how passionate that climate change, because we’re very passionate about what we do. Also with animals as well, working with them, because we connect really well with animals and understand us better I reckon that humans sometimes.

There’s lots of different areas we can be involved in. From my own life experience, growing up I was passionate about art. I loved drawing all the time. But I was also a scientist as well. So I was quite interested in analysing everything I could find. So I brought that together going okay, I like my science path, my art path. And I did also like doing computers, not as in being a tech but using software to be creative. So I brought that all together, so that satisfied quite a lot of different areas.

[00:18:32] Carers Qld Announcement

Carers Queensland is growing inclusion, awareness and opportunities for people with disability. And we’re better to grow things than a garden. We’re working with community gardens to improve accessibility and make sure people of all abilities can get their hands dirty. We’re starting conversations about what the community wants and needs and how we can work together to give everyone a place to put down roots and bloom.  Find out more, get in touch or look for events and opportunities coming up near you. Visit our website@carersqld.com dot au or call our inquiries line on 1300 999636.

[00:19:15] Tracy (voiceover)

Pharmacist, model, disability advocate, speaker and Instagrammer, Sara Shams is currently studying a Masters of Public Health as she works towards getting disability on the agenda in public policy, the media, and the fashion world. In 2023, we spoke to Sara about her experiences in employment and the fashion industry.

[00:19:37] Sara

I have personally worked in government, non-government and in private organisations and not-for-profits as well. And unfortunately I have faced, I wouldn't say discrimination, but I have definitely faced issues in every workforce that I've worked in, in relation to my disability. Some were much better than others, and I think it's unconscious bias and it's unconscious things that you do that you don't realise will affect someone.

For example, we had a staff program where there was an activity where cards were all placed on the ground. So for me, being able to pick up those cards off the ground was, obviously, it was impossible. It was too hard for me to do. But then that had the result of making me feel like a bit of a burden because I had to ask someone to get the card off the ground for me.

Other things as simple as, when we are going somewhere, can you please find out where the lifts are or make sure the venue is accessible? These little things make a huge difference. And that really, definitely, impacted my mental health and also my ability to do my role even though it shouldn't, because it had nothing to do with my role. But as a person with disability, I have those sort of thoughts when there's something that I can't do myself.

It's really important to ask the individual person with a disability in your office to see what they need. The issue is when you forget to ask. I think that is when you need to work on the policies of that organisation. So you need to change the policy to make sure you have the steps that are required to ensure an inclusive environment for everyone. I think that's definitely a little bit more difficult to solve, particularly from organisation or workplace to workplace. But I hope to work in that space as well and change the environment from within and from top down. Because I think everybody needs to be involved to make a place more inclusive. Not just the receptionist, not just your colleagues, it has to be everyone. Board, CEO, director, everybody.

[00:21:44] Voiceover

These days Sara is working on increasing representation of people with disability in public life, including the fashion industry. She stepped out on the catwalk at last year's Brisbane Fashion Week and met another fashionable advocate you might have met on Choice and Control: model and mental health champion Suzanne Dang.

[00:22:01] Sara

I have been trying to increase representation of people with disability in the media and in the fashion industry. That's how I met Suzanne she's so lovely. I met her because I was on a runway show, I modelled for a few designers and I was also on Brisbane Fashion Week.

It's been fantastic. And I was just thinking and reflecting on the year that I've had, and I just can't believe the goals I have actually been able to achieve. Because being on a runway is actually a goal that I had at the end of last year and I said “this is what I'm going to do this year, I'm going to achieve this” and I have, which is mind blowing for me still so I'm very, very pleased with that.

I would like to do more of that because I think that, even though as a society we are better and more inclusive in terms of representation, we still have a lot of work to do and a long way to go. I don't want young children growing up today thinking it's not okay to have a disability and I don't want them to not feel seen to be doing things as well. And so that's why I got into trying to increase representation, basically. And I would love to do more speaking roles as well, because I think that the experience that I've had not only my professional career but also the advocacy work that I do, I would love to do more and I guess try and reach and impact more people as well.

[00:23:30] Voiceover

Sara became an amputee at six. At the moment, her everyday legs are prosthetics called C-Leg 4s, smart limbs with built-in microprocessors. But before joining the NDIS, things were a lot less high tech.

[00:23:44] Sara

So before getting onto the NDIS I actually had a pair of legs that I was on for about six or seven years, far too old and unsafe. Being a bilateral above-knee amputee, I was having maybe three or four falls a week on those legs. And me being an active prosthetic legs user, going to work full-time, socially active, et cetera, that was really affecting obviously my health but also my mental health. So finally getting onto the NDIS and getting my approval and plans done was when I first got comfortable sockets and better legs. Then I also started trialling the microprocessor knee, which is what I'm on now.

Honestly, I have not looked back since I got those knees. They're just a lot more safe, particularly for myself, a bilateral above-knee amputee where I don't have that other leg to stabilise myself with if I'm going to fall.  They're just a lot more intuitive in terms of different planes, going uphill, downhill. One thing that’ll probably never be easy, going up stairs, for a bilateral above-knee amputee unfortunately. But the microprocessor legs are just so much safer. That's probably the biggest advantage of them.

[00:25:02] Carers Qld announcement

Do you have a passion or a talent to share with the world? A small business can be a great way for people with disability to earn income, build your confidence, be more independent, and be an active part of your community carers. Queensland is supporting our next generation of entrepreneurs with the be your own Boss microbusiness project. It's a place to find out what it means to start a business, whether it's a good fit for you, connect with business mentors and learn from existing microbusiness owners and even opportunities to showcase your goods and services in the be your own boss marketplace. Find out more, get in touch or look for events and opportunities coming up near you. Visit our website@carersqld.com au or call our inquiries line on 1300999636.

[00:25:52] Tracy (voiceover)

And our final interview in this International Women's Day special is with Brisbane mental health fashion blogger Suzanne Dang. Here Suzanne shares her adventures in fashion and her experience living with mental illness.

[00:26:06] Suzanne

Absolutely. In fact I started my blog in fashion first, in 2013, and I didn't find mental health and combine it with fashion until two or three years later.  I love dressing up, I would say.  I love dressing up: bold colours, statement earrings, lots of lace. I love pearls. When I go to fashion events, I introduce myself as a mental health fashion blogger. I do like a little one minute pitch kind of thing, I say, ‘I'm a mental health fashion blogger, I have bipolar. I want to share my story in my social media platforms as a voice to help other people who are going through similar things.’  And yeah, it took me a couple of years to say that comfortably. I've noticed that when I've been going to fashion events this year, , I say the same thing and I hope that it inspires other people.  I hope it can help people in other ways, when they check out my website, my Instagram or Facebook.

I've been going to fashion events since 2013, seven years. I'm quite surprised I'm not sick of it yet!  I still love it a lot.  I love going to events and meeting people, and I especially love going by myself. Because I think by yourself, it pushes you out of your comfort zone.  You go with your friends, you're confined to that group and you don’t get to have the opportunity to talk to everyone. So I absolutely love being by myself and sharing my story in a vulnerable way.  I think that I can make a difference in people's lives.  There are a lot of fashion events coming up this month, in October, so I will be quite busy as well.

[00:27:44] Jodie

How important is representation, that in the fashion world we see people with different abilities, different backgrounds, that it reflects the diversity of this great big community we have.

[00:27:55] Suzanne

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good question, Jodie.  A few years back I entered into a Vietnamese pageant and that was quote-unquote “the largest girl”. I had photos taken of me in lingerie, in formal wear, in bikini and so on. I was size 14, I was 15 or so?  I didn't care at a time, I knew I was the biggest girl.  I didn't care because I wanted to become a role model for the younger girls, to show that anyone who has any size body can actually enter pageants.  But soon after the photos were published I got some negative comments from people saying “Oh, you're fat” or “Sumo!”, “why did you enter, you don’t look skinny enough”, that kind of thing. Yeah.  And this makes me really curious how people have really extreme beauty standards, especially in the Asian communities I would say. And it just doesn't make sense to me, but I noticed that for a fact.  I entered the pageant not because I wanted to win, but mainly I wanted to be a positive role model for those who want to try to get into modelling.

This just really important I think.  When I go to fashion shows I try to see if they have diversity in models.  Most of them do, this year, it’s getting better. And I think it's so important because we people with disabilities, we’re also human and we have our own experiences as well. And I believe that people can model no matter what size body they are or if they have a disability or not, they can do what they want.

My experience with pageants, yeah, I tried to reapply again I remember a couple of years after that, and they said ‘we only allow size eight girls’.  This was a big eye-opener for me.

[00:29:43] Jodie

Wow, rude.

[00:29:45]  Suzanne

Yeah, very rude!  She said unfortunately she couldn’t accept me into it, because apparently they had issues with different sized bodies in the pageant, they just didn’t like it or something?  I don’t know.  So, I want to be a positive role model for girls who want to try out modelling, go to fashion events, or learn how to share their stories in a vulnerable way that helps people.

[00:30:13] Tracy (voiceover)

And that was Susan Dang. If you’d like to hear the full interviews of any of today’s guests, follow the links in the episode transcript or visit the Choice and Control website.

Thanks for joining us at Choice and Control, a carer's Queensland podcast. If you've enjoyed this podcast episode, please take a moment to leave a rating and review and share it with your community. For more information about the National Disability Insurance Scheme or Carers Queensland, contact us online at ww carersqld.com au or call us on 1300 999636 or head to Facebook and look for carers Queensland NDIS

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Links to full episodes:

Lauren Killen

https://carersqld.com.au/idpwd/brisbane-event/#watch-video-highlights-of-the-day

Lisa Cox

https://carersqld.com.au/choice-and-control-podcast/podcast/episode-1-5-lisa-cox-disability-representation/

Barb Cook

https://carersqld.com.au/choice-and-control-podcast/podcast/episode-2-3-barb-cook/

Sara Shams

https://carersqld.com.au/choice-and-control-podcast/podcast/episode-39-stepping-out-with-sara-shams/

Suzanne Dang

https://carersqld.com.au/choice-and-control-podcast/podcast/episode-2-2-suzanne-dang/